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Post by chilidog on Jun 12, 2010 0:03:06 GMT -6
Just watched an old episode of ST:TNG (1st season I believe). It was the episode where the Enterprise rescues three klingons but they turn out to be fugitives. One dies and the other two try to recruit Worf, but it doesn’t work. Worf ends up killing the leader. Etc... you know the one...
I love this episode. I think this was the first appearance of klingons (other than Worf) on the TNG. And they are awesome! They have this sense of mystery, skill, intelligence, and above all: danger, about them. The way klingons should be. There is peace between the Klingons and the Federation, but they are still to be treated with the utmost caution.
Unfortunately over the course of TNG and DS9 (and to an extent Voyager and Enterprise) klingons where transformed into buffoons. Worf was always cool, and I think got cooler over time, but ugh, klingons in general became a joke. You see them portrayed as fat brutes scratching their heads when they try to think. Not a race that could ever realistically have threatened the Federation or Romulan Empire.
Ok, the truth is, I love klingons and the culture that was developed around them (at least I mostly do), but I just hate the way they are shown as dumb thugs rather than true warriors like in the episode I mentioned.
Here is another thing that bugs me. I train in Martial Arts (Jiu-jitsu and MMA), I know guys that train hardcore (4-5 times a week). And they are TOUGH; no recreational martial artist like myself can hope to beat them. Klingons (I would assume) train in martial arts at least once everyday, yet they are regularly seen getting their asses kicked by Starfleet officers who train in self-defense maybe once or twice a week? In any case nowhere near the amount of training that klingons go through. It's just unrealistic. (Not to mention that klingons are bigger and stronger than humans.) Any average klingon warrior should be able to mob the floor with most Starfleet officers in hand-to-hand combat.
Granted, not all klingon episodes show them as buffoons. There are many I like. Take Blood Oath for example (the DS9 episode with the three old Klingons). Kang is pretty bad-***, and even tho Kor kinda comes off as a drunk, you can tell he’s still formidable and no fool.
So ok klingons don’t suck, just the direction they were taken sucks. I hope that in the new Star Trek universe klingons will again be portrayed as intelligent and dangerous warriors.
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Post by chilidog on Jun 12, 2010 2:44:38 GMT -6
mop... mop the floor...
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Post by Spock on Jun 12, 2010 9:59:07 GMT -6
from what i saw through the TNG/DS9 series that when Km'pec was the leader of the high council, there was a sense of honor and responsibility to the Klingon Empire. When he died and Gowron took over, it seemed that that sense of honor and such forth did not need to matter as much. They got lazy and did not care, but they still wanted to fight someone. Young leaders tend to bring on new/bad ideals. What would happen id Duras won the role of leader of the empire? I am sure it would of been pretty bad, and the Empire would be in turmoil fighting both the federation and the Romulans. That DS9 episode 'Blood Oath' was pretty awesome. I love it when they bring in legendary figures into the show, reminds them of how important it is to keep their ideals, no matter how small they are. Who wouldn't become a drunk when they find their home change into a bunch of pansies Plus you get to an age when you are considered 'obsolete' and they don't let you fight and die like a warrior, you would drink too ;D Even though they don't seem intelligent or dangerous, I still would not want to take one on in a fight. They can be brutal in any time period.
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Post by andrewlee on Jun 12, 2010 20:01:30 GMT -6
Honer was restored to the Klingon Empire when Worf killed Gowron and General Martok became chancellor at the conclusion of DS9!!
The Duras family was the main example of dishonorable Klingons!
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 14, 2010 7:48:46 GMT -6
I'm not a really big fan of Klingons, but I don't see that they were treated as a joke. "Regularly seen getting their asses kicked"? When is this? I recall Riker taking down one of the officers of the exchange ship he was first officer of ("A Matter of Honor"), but he trains with Worf. Picard was ambushed by two Klingons ("Sins of the Father") and very nearly got his head handed to him. Any others? Maybe I'm just not paying attention.
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Post by Luke on Jun 16, 2010 10:46:30 GMT -6
this is why I liked TOS Klingons better. In TNG they act like barbarians. You can't imagine how they manage to build spaceships let alone fly them.
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 18, 2010 7:55:13 GMT -6
I get that feeling sometimes, too. But mostly I think Klingons are portrayed as violent and aggressive, but still intelligent.
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Post by Arkroyal on Jun 18, 2010 9:43:17 GMT -6
Yes, because would an unintelligent barbaric species have that developed code of honour?
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Post by chilidog on Jun 21, 2010 1:20:19 GMT -6
The quickest example that pops to mind is actually an episode of Enterprise, where some klingons are raiding a small settlement. memory-alpha.org/wiki/MaraudersThe klingons in that episode are nothing more than dumb-*** thugs. Ugh, T’pol even teaches the villagers some Vulcan martial arts move – some little roll – that confounds the klingons. I guess 20 mins of self-defense lessons is enough to kick years of klingon martial arts in the ***. Then the idiot klingons get suckered into a trap and told “don’t come back, cuz now we can beat you” – and what do the klingons do? Run, with their tails between their legs. IMO klingons were treated as a joke in that episode. Sure they were dangerous and violent, but they weren’t smart, honorable warriors. Try to imagine the klingons in that original TNG episode I mentioned in this situation. You can’t, they never would get into that situation. But say they did, they would NEVER back down, never walk into that trap, and if they did, they would suffer the sever burns to escape the trap and destroy those who put them there – or die trying. Argh, sorry I don't mean to *****, I just hate those kinds of potrayals of klingons. It just takes so much away from what klingons should be. They should have used nausicaans in that episode, not klingons.
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Post by Arkroyal on Jun 21, 2010 4:56:09 GMT -6
Ah, but it could have been that the Klingons were not acting in a honourable manner to begin with and were actually outcasts. It's never stated is it?
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 21, 2010 8:08:20 GMT -6
Yes, that is a good point. These guys were thugs, not Klingon warriors. But as ArkRoyal said, true Klingon warriors would not have considered it honorable to raid an unarmed outpost in the first place.
But then ENT has been criticized a lot for the way it portrays the Star Trek universe. I myself don't like the way it portrays Vulcans as arrogant idiots. This is one reason ENT routinely ends up at the bottom of any poll for favorite series.
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Post by chilidog on Jun 21, 2010 12:01:00 GMT -6
Granted ENT isn’t really up to par with the other series, but I just picked that example cuz it was a simple one (and more recent). To a (maybe lesser) degree klingons have been depicted the same way in many later TNG & DS9 episodes.
Sure, those klingons could be outcasts, but that doesn’t explain why they are so dumb.
The acting dishonorable is one thing. That can be passed off as individuals rejecting their culture or justifying their actions for one reason or another. Like General Chang (in ST VI) for example, there is one vicious calculating dude. When he walks into a room you know you’re not dealing with some dim-witted barbarian. Or Captain Kruge even (in ST III), these are intelligent, dangerous klingons.
It is really the lack of intelligence that bugs me the most. How they act like buffoons.
In my universe klingons are cool, calculating, efficient, honorable warriors. They are Samurai, not club wielding cavemen.
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Post by Luke on Jun 23, 2010 11:34:28 GMT -6
Kruge? He attacked the Enterprise with a scout ship with acrew of 24! You call that intelligent?
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 25, 2010 8:02:19 GMT -6
Sure, those klingons could be outcasts, but that doesn’t explain why they are so dumb. The acting dishonorable is one thing. That can be passed off as individuals rejecting their culture or justifying their actions for one reason or another. I can certainly understand what you're getting at. But it's starting to sound like a question of stereotypes now. All Humans in the series don't come off as perfect, either. Some are cowardly, some are megalomaniacs, some are just in the way. Look at it this way -- if your conception of Klingons is that of honorable warriors who spend several hours a day in advanced martial arts training, they must have been shown that way in the series often enough for you to think that was normal. So the few times you see them shown differently are just exceptions. Do ALL Klingons have to act a certain way? That's like expecting all Humans to act the same way. Good stories are about individuals, not cultural stereotypes.
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Post by chilidog on Jun 25, 2010 10:40:43 GMT -6
As I said, it isn't the acting dishonorable that really bugs me. It is more about how over the course of TNG klingons are changed from first being portrayed as cold calculating warriors (as seen in the movies and early episodes) to dimwitted barbarians who act like animals.
Of course they are not all going to be perfect or the same. But it is the MAJORITY of klingons in later episodes of TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT are shown as fools and thugs, and especially when they are in large groups. It is the smart ones that seem the exception. I think a lot of writers just defaulted to klingons when they needed some sort of bully/thug to fill a role.
You can even see it in how klingons are thought of and treated by the various crew members of the shows (or other characters). In the first few episodes of TNG they are treated with caution and respect ("Remember with who we are dealing with." – Picard to Riker). But later it's like "Ugh, klingons again...", annoyance or disgust.
There was a quality about them that was lost along the way.
My compliant here is just about that, I wish the writers had stuck with the earlier portrayal. In anycase, I still love klingons and try to look past it. As you said, I look at if as if the ones shown are the odd ones out.
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