Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 22, 2009 7:36:24 GMT -6
On Ventax II, a Federation science team has been abducted by a mob, terrified because of the reappearance of a supernatural being called Ardra, who made a contract with the planet 1,000 years ago. She would grant them 1,000 years of peace and prosperity, after which time the planet and everything on it would belong to her. Although the Federation people are released, Picard challenges the contract in a legal proceeding with Data as impartial arbitrator.
This was a very entertaining episode, especially during the trial itself ("The advocate will refrain from making her opponent disappear."), but one that raises a few questions. Picard comes off as terribly closed-minded. He has personally encountered beings capable of all the things Ardra was (Q, for one example), and yet he seems to have arbitrarily decided that she isn't one of them. Another thing that puzzles me is, since the planet abandoned modern technology long ago in favor of an agrarian lifestyle, why did the Federation send a contact team in the first place? What happened to the Prime Directive?
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Luke
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Post by Luke on Jun 24, 2009 10:27:58 GMT -6
In a way, this was similar to Who Watches the Watches, except in that one Picard was trying to prove HE wasnt the supernatural being.
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kijuro
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Post by kijuro on Jun 25, 2009 7:53:15 GMT -6
Yeah, I think that it was made clear that these people had extraterrestrial contact before the episode. Klingons, specifically. That and Picard was trying to save them from another alien threat that already nullified the whole "non-interference" principle.
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 26, 2009 7:49:59 GMT -6
But even the contact with the Klingons would have been after they had supposedly abandoned industrial technology, wouldn't it? It's possible they had space travel before that, and the Federation decided to make an exception in their case.
But it hadn't been proved yet that Ardra was an "alien threat". In fact, Data ruled fairly early on that her identity as Ardra had been established. Picard's main focus seemed to be on whether she had actually done anything to help Ventaxian culture. In keeping with his own humanistic outlook, he thought they should get full credit for doing it themselves.
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Luke
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Post by Luke on Jun 27, 2009 8:24:28 GMT -6
Picard does have a humanistic outlook. Maybe thats why he didnt accept Ardra's story from the beginning. But i have to admit for awhile there I wasnt sure how it was going to turn out. It looked like maybe she really was the devil!
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kijuro
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Post by kijuro on Jun 27, 2009 12:57:07 GMT -6
I'm assuming that the Federation and Starfleet have official atheist policies and therefore assume that any being posing as the Devil is lying.
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jun 29, 2009 8:08:09 GMT -6
Why would you assume that? I don't recall anything that gave that impression.
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kijuro
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Post by kijuro on Jun 29, 2009 9:08:21 GMT -6
Well, just because the Federation is based on the UN, which is really molded mostly by the US Constitution. Maybe not atheist, but at least separation of church and state. And the prevailing attitude by all scientists in the franchise seems to be towards evolution, so I'd assume that Starfleet's policy would at least be skeptical of claims of divinity.
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jul 2, 2009 7:33:27 GMT -6
I'm glad you touched on this actually, because for years I've heard similar insinuations (my friends who don't like Star Trek claim that it's "too atheistic"), and I think it's a topic that should finally come out in the open. [That sound you hear is a soap box being dragged into place... ] First, I'm always puzzled why a lot of people seem to automatically connect "church/state separation" with "atheism". It seems to me that separation is the only logical compromise when you have a culture made up of so many different beliefs, as the Federation is for example. Separation simply means that the governing body remains neutral with respect to religion, leaving it strictly up to each individual's conscience. On the contrary, an "officially atheist" government would presumably go out of its way to suppress or at least discourage religion. The Federation certainly doesn't do that. Second, evolution is sometimes mentioned on Star Trek (in my opinion not often enough, actually) because it happens to be a proven fact of nature, the same as gravity and black holes. Even more, natural selection has actually been observed to happen on Star Trek! Now, to be fair, special creation (by beings which might be described as "supernatural") has also been observed to happen on Star Trek. That's my point, really -- the one doesn't automatically rule out the other. Starfleet officers seem to go with whatever theory happens to fit the observational data. I'm not saying they're perfect -- individuals might have individual biases, for example in the episode mentioned above where Picard immediately assumes that Ardra is not "the devil". I'm saying I don't notice any systematic "bias" by Starfleet against "divine" causes, whatever that might mean. If there's any bias among Science officers, it is usually what we call "methodological naturalism", which simply means that you don't get very far in science by assuming a supernatural cause right off the bat. It makes more sense to look for natural causes first, rather than unnecessarily postulate supernatural beings which may or may not exist. Third, I certainly do NOT get the impression that Picard is an atheist! A humanist certainly, but not an atheist. (I happen to be an atheist myself, and I wouldn't dearly love to claim him as one of us if I could!) Fourth, I want to make it clear that anything I have said here is my personal opinion and not the "official" policy of The Star Trek Forum. I'm just trying to encourage what I hope will be an interesting conversation. I really do want to see all sides of this issue presented.
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kijuro
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Post by kijuro on Jul 2, 2009 15:29:48 GMT -6
Very good response, Atoz. I'm religious, myself. And you're right, sep of C and S doesn't mean atheism. The ancient Jews actually practiced it.
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Luke
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Post by Luke on Jul 8, 2009 11:47:11 GMT -6
* I certainly do NOT get the impression that Picard is an atheist!*
I'm curiuus why you don't think so Admiral.
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Post by andrewlee on Jul 8, 2009 14:42:07 GMT -6
I never got the impression any Star fleet officer, except for Bajorans believed in God or gods. I also never got the impression they were atheists either. This would mean they seemed to be agnostics neither accepting nor denying the existence of God or gods...aka powerful beings like Q impersonating gods . I don't base this on any one episode, but taking into account all of them.
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jul 10, 2009 8:11:37 GMT -6
They don't usually talk about their personal religious beliefs, because most of the time the subject doesn't come up. They don't talk about religion often on "Law & Order" either (for example), but we don't think of those characters as atheists or agnostics.
For one thing, in "Where No One Has Gone Before", when Picard sees his grandmother, he accepts her presence all too easily. Plus he makes comments in "Where Silence Has Lease" and "Tapestry" which definitely indicate that he expects an afterlife of some kind. Now, I don't claim this is conclusive. It's possible there are atheists who believe in an immaterial soul, even though I've never personally met one.
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jul 10, 2009 8:12:58 GMT -6
Very good response, Atoz. I'm religious, myself. I'm definitely not trying to start a fight or something. I usually get along very well with religious people. I've just found that controversial topics sometimes generate more interest than dull ones.
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Post by trelane on Jul 11, 2009 10:06:39 GMT -6
Regardless of religion, though, fans can enjoy this episode for the mythical aspect and the story - not that it's one of the best every written, but it has some great moments.
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