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Post by tngfan on Jan 25, 2008 11:45:31 GMT -6
I was watching some TNG episodes that I saved on my Tivo and I came across the 2 part episode "Times Arrow where Data is and the crew are whisked into 19th century earth because of those aliens that are draining energy from humans at the time. Anyways, what is the deal with Picard and Guinan? In one of the scenes in this episode, Guinan says that if Picard doesn't go with the away team to 19th century earth, they will never meet. How is that so? I'm kinda confused with the time paradox stuff so if someone can shed some light on this subject, that would be really cool.
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jan 28, 2008 8:37:28 GMT -6
I don't blame you for being confused. By their very nature, time travel paradoxes play havok with our concepts of cause and effect. That's part of what makes them so interesting.
Guinan's people are extremely long-lived (in the movie "Nemesis", she mentioned that she'd been married 22 times). She first met Picard when she was living in 19th century San Francisco, when Picard came back in time to deal with the Devidians. On the strength of that meeting, she apparently sought out Picard five centuries later and started a close relationship with him (I say apparently because we don't know the details of that second meeting). But she would not have known him unless she had first met him in the 19th century. Picard didn't remember this first meeting because from his point of view in the 24th century, it hadn't happened yet (although from Guinan's point of view, it had). Does that answer your question?
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Post by Atoz 77 on Jan 28, 2008 8:38:19 GMT -6
But that's nothing. An even worse paradox is this -- Picard ended up trapped underground with Guinan, so that his only means of contacting the Enterprise was by leaving a message in Data's head (which had been knocked off his body by the energy discharge from the Ophidian). Now, this is the same head which was discovered five centuries later, which ended up on the Enterprise, and which Geordi ended up putting back on Data's body, so the message could finally be delivered! There was brief period of time then, when the same head was in two places at once -- in Data's lab and on Data's actual shoulders! The paradox is this -- when they first discovered the head, was the message already there? How could it be, if Picard hadn't put it there yet? But at the same time, that head spent the entire episode in Data's lab. No one else was ever in contact with that head, so it must have already been there!
As to the technical aspects of how time travel paradoxes can occur, I am a biologist, not an astrophysicist. At this point, I'm going to have to turn you over to our resident expert in time travel, Baggy52. Bags, please explain it to the Cadet.
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Post by tngfan on Jan 30, 2008 19:24:19 GMT -6
I guess that does make some sense but how can Jean Luc not remember his first meeting with Guinan? I mean you go back in time and then come back into the future you are going to remember everything that happens correct?
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MrData
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Post by MrData on Jan 30, 2008 20:18:39 GMT -6
When Picard got back to the Enterprise from the 19th century, he remembered the meeting, because he had it. Before the time he got back to the Enterprise, he couldn't, because for him, it hadn't happened yet. Guinan, however, had that meeting hundreds of years ago, and therefore, could remember it before Picard could.
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Baggy52
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Post by Baggy52 on Jan 30, 2008 20:45:54 GMT -6
As the only person here with personal experiance tanning with a flux capacitator... What happened is that the head found was knocked off Data from the past, where Picard entered the message. Data was in the past due to the time traveling aliens... Guinan met Picard in the past and sought him out in the futre so that he would go into the past and meet her. endless loop, don't try.
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Post by Atoz 77 on Feb 1, 2008 9:06:40 GMT -6
It's like Mr. Data said. At the beginning of the episode, he didn't remember what from his point of view hadn't happened yet (any more than we would remember an episode we hadn't already seen). Does that make sense?
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Akira
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Post by Akira on Mar 3, 2008 2:33:41 GMT -6
Have I seriously just enterd a topic with people trying to eplain the infinate paradoxs of time travell?
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Mar 3, 2008 8:50:02 GMT -6
I don't know -- have you?
[cue "Twilight Zone" theme]
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Akira
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Post by Akira on Mar 3, 2008 19:36:11 GMT -6
z0mG!!11111111111111111!!! *FLEEEEE's post haste to his local asylum for self comitment*
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Atoz 77
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Post by Atoz 77 on Mar 6, 2008 8:44:57 GMT -6
Well, that's a little extreme.
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Post by valis on May 29, 2008 10:14:34 GMT -6
But that's nothing. An even worse paradox is this -- Picard ended up trapped underground with Guinan, so that his only means of contacting the Enterprise was by leaving a message in Data's head (which had been knocked off his body by the energy discharge from the Ophidian). Now, this is the same head which was discovered five centuries later, which ended up on the Enterprise, and which Geordi ended up putting back on Data's body, so the message could finally be delivered! There was brief period of time then, when the same head was in two places at once -- in Data's lab and on Data's actual shoulders! The paradox is this -- when they first discovered the head, was the message already there? How could it be, if Picard hadn't put it there yet? But at the same time, that head spent the entire episode in Data's lab. No one else was ever in contact with that head, so it must have already been there! Yes, the message was always there from very the beginning of the episode. When they found Data's head at the beginning to start the whole thing off, it was hundreds of years after it had been knocked off Data's shoulders in the cave back on Earth and tinkered with by Jean-Luc in the 19th Century. Like Guinan, it had "lived" the whole thing already and so "knew" what Picard had told it with that iron filing. Picard hadn't lived it yet, but it had happened. Another interesting thing to think about is that, from this episode on, Data's head is 500 years older than the rest of his body...
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Post by Atoz 77 on May 30, 2008 7:32:21 GMT -6
Ah, but if the head hadn't been found in San Francisco, they never would have gone to that planet in the first place, Picard wouldn't have been trapped in the cavern, and he wouldn't have had to think of leaving a message.... That's the trouble with time travel paradoxes.
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Post by andrewlee on Jul 2, 2008 21:41:43 GMT -6
Times arrow is one of my favorite episodes. I can understand the time paradoxes by visualizing them in my mind. They are much harder to explain in words though.
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Post by THE CAKE IS A LIE! on Jul 11, 2008 20:33:03 GMT -6
eh, to be honest, I don't care for the episodes about the past. Unless you're talking Star Wreck, then that history is funny!
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