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Post by stark on Jan 9, 2010 19:35:09 GMT -6
First of all the shows are entertaining, and I enjoy watching it. But many things about ST are really illogical:
Food replicators! With that thing capable of replication EVERYTHING from phaser to a luck changing machine how any Ferenghi can sell anything at all? Why do freighters exist, what are they carring that cannot be just replicated?
Transporters! That thing makes the show easier to shoot, but it's a nonsence! the thing capable of taking anyone from almost any place just by "Beam up three people" command makes half of the episodes absolutely stupid.
Time travel. Well, if anyone is interested I can easily explain why any messing with this thing makes any episode a farce.
A races! Klingons are weaknings. They do not afraid of death and that is a weakness. They are agressive and that is a weakness. They have a warrior cast and that is a weakness. They value honor and that is a weakness. I am not even mentioning them being incredibly stupid. And they still carring bath'leths in developed space era! How such a race could survive for long? Even Ferenghi would wipe them out long before DS9 events. The true warriors are Vulcans. They do not like casulties on their side, they appear peaceful, the warriors among vulcans are those who are best suited for that role, they value rationality and they are smart. Their only weakness is too much traditionalism. Romulans and of course changelings are also very nice... But Klingons.. Bah!
Ferenghi just do not know a thing about doing business. Well, it is will take too much time describing all their stupidities in business. Let me just remind that they are using bars of precious metal as a currency! Humans descovered benefits of making a coins about 4 thousand years ago... Not mentioning the banking system.
And the most stupid race is of course HUMANS! Their captains allow enemies to fire are their ships ar least 3 times before they come to conclusion that it will be good idea to return fire. Any obvious conspiracy against the Federation goes unnotices and only a pure luck saves those suckers every time. Rodenberry must be some kind of communist, which is stupid. Who would to do all the dirty work if they are not paid for it? Well, at least that explains why everytime all the work is done by seniour officers. Others just do not want to ) They even do not wish to show themselves on screen very much...
And if there is no communism in StarFleet, then why the problems of enterpise or DS9 are never the financial ones? In Babylon5 for example everything looked real. The problems with subsidies, the dockers strikes and so on...
I will continue later )
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edify
Lt. Jr. Grade
Posts: 150
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Post by edify on Jan 9, 2010 22:16:56 GMT -6
Are you a troll? I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth responding since it seemed that you joined the forum just to make a bunch of wild accusations that don't hold water when you really get down to it. Plus, you didn't even back up any of your claims. Try using evidence to support your arguments or you'll come across as just complaining, and your complaints will be extremely lacking. I'll attempt to show some of your errors:
First, your complaint about food replicators. There are some materials that cannot be replicated at all. For instance, gold pressed latinum. That is what really makes gold pressed latinum so valuable, the fact that it can't be replicated. Now, I'm not sure why it can't; I don't know if they've ever explained it or not. But the fact of the matter is the average person (so far as I know) doesn't have access to a replicator. Freighters deliver to all sorts of different planets, even backwater planets which are not that technologically advanced. So whether something can be replicated easily is moot; most people wouldn't be able to replicate the items, if they can be replicated in the first place. I'm sure gold-pressed latinum is not the only substance impossible to replicate.
First of all, transporters are not "non-sense." It not only makes the show easier to shoot, it also makes the show *cheaper* to shoot. Especially with the Original Series, they simply didn't have the budget to send a shuttlecraft all the time; so they came up with the invention of transporters. The transporter effect was done by swirling glitter around in a cup of water. Much cheaper. Now, the principle behind transporters are not nonsense, either. I believe that a scientist has been able to transport a molecule (though I may be mistaken on that). But the principle behind it does mean that transporter technology will be impossible to create. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle maintains that it is possible to know the position of a molecule and the movement of one, but not both at the same time. They do get around this with a "magical" device called Heisenberg Compensators, which literally compensate for the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (which also happens to be my all-time favorite Star Trek in-joke).
As for time travel, you'll have to explain just what you mean by the shows being a farce. Time travel is theoretically possible, but as quantum mechanics has evolved so have the theories behind Star Trek's various time travel episodes. So not every episode has the same outcome, according to modern understanding of time travel.
You are judging races by your pre-conceived notions. Now, it's not a bad thing to hold beliefs, especially the belief that we should respect all life (which the Klingons, and certain other races, don't necessarily hold to -- or hold to a variant of it). But some might say that no fear of death make the Klingons even more fierce warriors than those that do fear death. They are a highly aggressive species, and excellent warriors. Most anyone who sees a Klingon approaching them will make way immediately rather than stand up against him/her. And Klingon warriors don't only carry bat'leths. Klingons have disruptors and disruptor pistols. Bat'leths are usually used in ceremonial battles, or in hand-to-hand combat. Watch Star Trek III if you don't believe me about disruptor pistols.
What you seem to be missing is that the races in Star Trek are modeled after different nations we've known on Earth (the most obvious being the Romulans being modeled after the Romans). I don't know the analogs off-hand, but the major races in Star Trek all are quite different in their ideologies. Vulcans are wise pacifists who value logic above all else; the Ferengi are the businessmen; the Klingons are a warrior race, who value personal honor above all else; the Romulans are cunning, resorting to secrecy and espionage before makin their attack; the Bajorans are a deeply spiritual people; so on and so forth.
As for your question about the Ferengi: how are they doing business poorly? First of all, races develop at different times. The Bajorans achieved space flight before humanity did. Plus, the Ferengi were likely warp capable before humans were (they purchased warp drive rather than developing it themselves).
I'm starting to question if you've ever actually seen an episode of star Trek. No captain in Starfleet would let their ship get pummeled before decided to return fire. Potentiality of threat is always determined before the captain decides on a course of action. Usually they will have to be fired on first before they return fire, but that's no different than what our own police force do. They can't fire unless fired on first.
Now, would you please have some evidence to back up your claims?
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 8:08:09 GMT -6
of course I would! But I'll start from the beginning-food replicators. There was DS9 episode "Rivals" where food replicators were able to replicate luck machine which was beyond any known technology! In "Civil Devence" th phaser was replicated. In another episode Sisko replicated parts for ancient bajoran spaceship. In many episodes ferenghi Quark listed all the things he values- gold, latinum, silver, deterium, lithium gems and many other things. It's hard to believe that FR's can replicate anything without having to use minerals and metals. And Quark DOES HAVE the replicator! All such a mess could be easily avoided simply by replacing FR's in ST by mini Hydroponic Farms...
I have no arguements aboit transporters being "cheap" to shoot. But that is making the show cheap. And here I do not speak about the money but about the Sci-Fi logic. The idea of transporter itself is okey, but if you make any assumption, you HAVE to make also every conclusion. You don't just add transporters without changing everything that TPs can possibly affect. In "To the Death" we see that enemies can be beamed from enemy ship to your ship with their weapons being desintegrated in the process. That makes ALL uses of boarding parties in Star Trek illogical. In one of the series Gal Dukat and Kira TPed themselves into Klingon Warbird and TPed all the klingons out. That mean as soon as any enemy seize control of for example Defiant's transporter, he can TP all the crew members out as well. That makes illogical all the episodes where enemy was sabotaging the ship.
And the last thing- if anyone can TP some into place, that means the place is no shielded and there are no interferences and they can also TP enemies from that place into an open space. That makes every series where characters where using transporter and attacking the enemies stupid.
Time travel: Have you ever heard about "Batterfly effect"? As soon as you travel to the past only by being there in your physical form for 1/1000000 of a second you change the future. In Star Trek characters manage to correct everything and be back in their time where nothing has changed. But that's impossible! the more they try to correct in the past the more changes there will be in present so they can never return to the exact timeplace they left.
Klingons- being glad to meet honorable death they will less tend to avoid the death and that will result higher casulties and loss of ships. More brave but stupid suicide attacks, and therefore more defeats. I agree that every race brings some aspect of humans. Klingons are like Jap samurai. But no kamikadze helped them against "Little Boy" and "Fat Man" if you know what I mean... And look on todays japaneese who conqured the markets of USA by their auto TVs electronics and other staff. May be they are still Klingons deep inside but for victory they are achieving they had to change. Being Klingon (stupid and agressive) can only lead to destruction of homeworld and not to some feared klingon empire... Vulcans are the true warriors, and klingons are puppets for beating... PS. do not call Vulcans a pacifists before seing ST:Enterprise. Vulcans are perfectly okey, and has no hesitation of attacing when they see it neccesery.
It is right that races develop in diferent times, but dude... Ferenghi main line of developement is economics! And they are totaly sucking at it. Remember Quark crawling the ventilation with VERY heavy bag of latinum behind him? I am laughing very loudly imagining transactions on Ferenghistan done with trains full of latinum traveling all over the planet )))
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 8:18:47 GMT -6
No captain in Starfleet would let their ship get pummeled before decided to return fire. ====================== Have YOU ever seen any episode of Star Trek? "Rules of Engagement" where Warf destroyed "civilian transport" decloaked in front of Defiant in a middle of a battle? And that worm Sisko telling Warf that he must fully identify the ship before shooting at it, and that Warf should set aside his military thinking and be ready to sacrafice his and his crew lifes for avoiding the possibility to hit the civilians. And that is what ALL starfleet captains do. Archer, Kirk, Packard, Sisko, everyone allow enemy to hit their ship at least 3 times before actually shooting back. See Star Trak for yourself and you will see. That is soooooo stupid in era when enemy can turn you into an interstellar dust by one shot if it's weapons are powerfull enough.
Potentiality of threat is always determined before the captain decides on a course of action. Usually they will have to be fired on first before they return fire, but that's no different than what our own police force do. They can't fire unless fired on first. ========================== In real life it is "Drop your weapon!" and then police start shooting or "He's got a gun!" and then police opens fire. No criminal is allowed to open fire at police first in real world.
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kynan101
Ensign
[ss:Federation]
Posts: 83
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Post by kynan101 on Jan 10, 2010 8:41:48 GMT -6
there not illogical but they are stupid and one day id like to see them do that and get shot to pieces without firing a shot it would be funny
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 9:51:09 GMT -6
Yeah ) Pity that creators of ST would never do that. It is against their pacifist idealogy that could only exist in ideal world where enemy fire is not destroying the ship but only reduce the shields to some random % That of course makes more easily to identify, hail, think, hail again, , recieve damage report, finally starting preparation to battle protocol when you know that the shields will stand as much as authors of ST want.
Some more frustrating things about DS9: DS9 was a prison for Bajorans, why the hell would they make an ore-processing plant there? Isn't it stupid to bring the RAW ORE to a space station, make a metals out of it and bring it back to a surface? If space is a safest place to put a prison, why to shield it? And if space isn't the safe place, why to put prison there at all? Or may be every Cardassian prison has a shields of a warship?
The shields! Okey, it is nice to have in games like MOO2, but it is sooooo stupid... If the shields are possible to break with lets say 5 hits of phasor beam why not to make the weapons 5 times stronger on the expence of let's say half of the shields power? The weapons are always designed not to "bring shields to 75%" but to destroy. What is wrong with all Klingons, Romulans, Xindi, Dominion and others? Are their weapons always on "stun"? ))
The "Deus ex Machina" drives me crazy. Instead of elegant or logical tactical solutions of B5, Star Trek guys just "invent" another portion of technological bullsh1t and get out of troubles. Like entering the cheat codes in the game when you are screwed.
The professionalism of a superman! Engeneers are always capable of hacking the alien computers build with completely different architecture and running on operation sistem never seen by that engeneer, doctors are masters of healing the spiecies they meet for the first time, pilots are capable to fly on any alien ship in the galaxy...
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 9:55:17 GMT -6
the girls of Star Trek are sexy, much sexier then of Babylon5. T'Pol, the bajoran girlfriend of young Sisco, trill Dax... But ALIEN girls should look like ones you would NEVER want to have sex with. Have you seen the movie Alien? Whould you like to have Alien female in your bed? ) Okey, may be they could look a little less scary, for example like Na'Toth of Babylon5, but not human like! Dax for example only has some tatoo, and Kira got some dirt on her nose. They both look more Human (Lets take Archer as human example) then Sisco.
some races like Ferenghi seems to be not less stupid then the authors of ST. I can understand that whoever writes the stories for Star Trek is not a big fan of capitalism and private property, but why to make the business race grotesque liers and decievers? Honesty and a good reputation is very good for business, ST writers should know that... How klingons have managed to get into space if they are still at feodalic age, both with the structure of their society and with their intellectual qualities? And the most disappointing are the Humans... Where is all the greed, lust for power, intolarance, strict rules for the Starfleet officers, political intrigues? On Babylon5 Sheridan always was in the center of political agendas, and Humans were even more dangerous enemies of B5 then even Shadows. Humans of ST are disgusting, always following their little FEELINGS, without thinking of the conquences. I realy like to see them all dead, but not only they are disgusting, but they are also immortal! What is realy the interest of watching the "dangerous adventures" where you know for sure that noone is gonna die, no matter how stupid they act?
I can imagine the battle between White Star and Defiant like that:
Ivanova: Enemy ship "Defiant" is detected. Kira: Our sensors are detecting light ship. It is on the very end of range of our sensors but we are able to identify it. It is an enemy ship "White Star"
Marcus: Target locked. Odo in shape of Malcolm Reed: They are targeting their weapons on us!
Sicso:Hail them. Sheridan: Fire!
Hoshi Dax: they are not responding Sheridan: Fire! Maneur 372 using the gravity field of collapsar. Fire again, accelerate, 180 degrees turn and again FIRE!
Young O'Brian looking exactly like Trip: Engeneering to the bridge, we'are taking heavy damage! Ivanova, pressing the big red button: I'm a god!
Sicso: Prepare the photon cannons, target their engines Bester (grinning): and one more unpleasant surprise for you...
Odo(in shape of Reed): Cannons are offline... Sheridan(pressing the biggest and reddest button): Asta la vista baby...
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Post by andrewlee on Jan 10, 2010 14:33:30 GMT -6
Stark. These issues have been discussed before by many of us on other threads. The inconsistencies, lack of continuity and realism in Star Trek. I have noticed this as well and in other sci-fi series and movies. I have noticed this even in science shows one contradicting another. It does seem like you hate Star Trek and I'm wondering if you joined this forum just to negatively criticize it?
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 14:55:41 GMT -6
Not at all ) I do like watching DS9 (I watching it now). It reminds me of Babylon5, but some parts I indeed do hate, and I just need some place to complain about the parts I dislike, thats all ) It just helps me to get all the negative emotions about ST out of my head ) When I'll be done, I'll be more then willing to talk about the things I liked about ST )
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Post by andrewlee on Jan 10, 2010 15:18:56 GMT -6
Stark. I was just wondering is all. I do understand what you mean about these things. What it comes down to is a question of how much some one wants to focus the amount of positives or negatives in any given thing. We all perceive things differently and an issue for one may not be an issue for another.
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 15:21:04 GMT -6
And BTW andrewlee (I like your avatar and I like vulkans and half-vulkans) can you make a list of illogical things about Babylon5?
I can think only of the early Universe of B5 having the records of Valen BEFORE Jeffrey Sinkler went back in time onboard B4...
May be B5 also is a bit naive and idealistic, but I do not see any things that are completely illogical...
In every show you like when you see something stupid you try to come up with some explanation for yourself, to make show better to watch. But logic failures in ST are so huge that I just couldn't think of any correcting explanations...
Especialy the Orbital Ore Processing Plant a.k.a Terak Nor a.k.a. DS9... Let's move some of chinese boots factories into ISS? That would be fun ) And Bill Gates would even collect enough money over a year to buy a pair of such a boots... Oh, I forgot that boots manifacturing is almost a Hi-Tec compared to ore processing )
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 15:27:23 GMT -6
Well, I have a LOT of negative at the moment. I've watched TOS, Enterprise and 4 seasons of DS9! And I cannot share the negativie thoughts with my friends because they'll just make fun of me watching Star Trek )
And most of all I afraid of the question- "ST sucks, you see it for yourself, so why do you still watching that crap?" So I will have to start defending Star Trek when I feel like attacking ))
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Post by andrewlee on Jan 10, 2010 15:29:44 GMT -6
And BTW andrewlee (I like your avatar and I like vulkans and half-vulkans) can you make a list of illogical things about Babylon5? I can think only of the early Universe of B5 having the records of Valen BEFORE Jeffrey Sinkler went back in time onboard B4... May be B5 also is a bit naive and idealistic, but I do not see any things that are completely illogical... In every show you like when you see something stupid you try to come up with some explanation for yourself, to make show better to watch. But logic failures in ST are so huge that I just couldn't think of any correcting explanations... Especialy the Orbital Ore Processing Plant a.k.a Terak Nor a.k.a. DS9... Let's move some of chinese boots factories into ISS? That would be fun ) And Bill Gates would even collect enough money over a year to buy a pair of such a boots... Oh, I forgot that boots manifacturing is almost a Hi-Tec compared to ore processing ) Stark. You have listed of a lot of examples! Star Trek things that are illogical are often done that way to make the story more entertaining by some people's standards without regard for there being a realistic sense to them. I haven't seen very much of Babylon 5 to give you what you want here. I do notice a lot of illogical things in the media, in daily life, and the way many people speak! Idioms are a perfect example of speaking illogically!! The Human race is largely illogical!!
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Post by stark on Jan 10, 2010 20:01:42 GMT -6
But Star Trek is made for a nerds. And geeks are the very logical, smart people regardless of strange behavour. So geeks will see and descuss every fallacy made by show authors!
BTW I've started watching ST after seeing sit-com "The Big Bang Theory". There was a character Sheldon Cooper (My favorite one) who was always called a "vulkan" and "Spok" by his geek friends. So I downloaded ST in order to find out who are those "vulkans" "spoks" "klingons" and other staff frequently mentioned there.
About realism: There are things that are not realistic but they are logical. Warp drive for example. They managed to reach speeds thousands of times faster then the speed of light WITHOUT contradicting the Relativity Theory. And such a things I can accept, even more- I admire it. May be some day such a drive will became a reality. But bars of some metal as an advanced intergalactic currency? There is nothing fictional in it, yet it is illogical, and it does distract me from enjoing the show ( And this is nothing wrong about creature able to change it's shape, but Odo turning into a MOUSE?!
Babylon5: The greatest sci-fi show ever. If you haven't seen it yet I envy you. You can see it and enjoy it... Realism, continuety, phylosophical moral problems, very nice space battles (with tactical thinking, not mere "raise the shields, target their engines, damage report"), very much of political intrigues much more global then the little agendas of DS9 that are being resolved in 1 maximum 2 episodes. Sometimes the show even gets cruel... (The "Fall of Centari Prime" episode)
An idioms: May I ask why are you going bananas about idioms? )
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Post by andrewlee on Jan 10, 2010 20:44:53 GMT -6
Stark I understand how something illogical can ruin a show to a point. I get the impression that this is more the case for you than most others. As annoying as illogical things can be, try not to let these things ruin the good or logical in them. It is another matter of being more positive than negative. You give some interesting examples to show your point!
It is interesting how looking up something will led you somewhere like the case of the guy you said that his friends called him Vulcan.
If Babylon 5 is as good as you say it is I'm considering checking it out. Some times I don't get interested in a show until long after it is started and even after it has finished.
About the idioms. They are the most illogical things I can think of! I get a lot of amusement out of making jokes and satires out of them !! lol ...it's a hobby ;D
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