William Picard
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Let's make sure that history never forgets the name... Enterprise[ss:Solar Flare]
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Post by William Picard on Aug 26, 2006 21:02:58 GMT -6
i thought gul dukat was creepy
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Aug 27, 2006 8:24:37 GMT -6
why do you think he was? me its dukat as well. he did some pretty nasty things. turning from bad to good, to bad to good to bad again, it was pure stupidness. Summoning Pa'Wraiths (sp?), bringing the jem h'dar to the alpha quadrant, attacking the federation, killing cardassians..hes the best of all worlds lol
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William Picard
Lt. Commander
Let's make sure that history never forgets the name... Enterprise[ss:Solar Flare]
Posts: 525
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Post by William Picard on Aug 27, 2006 8:33:24 GMT -6
let's see........he was in command of bajor during the occupation,he tried tp kill his own daughter,he led the cardassians in the dominion war,he released the pah-wraiths,he killed jadzia,he seduced kai winn, there's alot he was responsible for
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Aug 27, 2006 8:38:30 GMT -6
oh yea rofl i missed quite a bit there...totally forgot about the occupation..that was huge...nice answers
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William Picard
Lt. Commander
Let's make sure that history never forgets the name... Enterprise[ss:Solar Flare]
Posts: 525
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Post by William Picard on Aug 27, 2006 8:39:21 GMT -6
ya well they are all true and on subject
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Post by jopierce on Aug 27, 2006 9:25:39 GMT -6
let's see........he was in command of bajor during the occupation,he tried tp kill his own daughter,he led the cardassians in the dominion war,he released the pah-wraiths,he killed jadzia,he seduced kai winn, there's alot he was responsible for Aw, come on, Will. He was just "misunderstood."
I liked Dukat... but I preferred Garak. Hated Dumar.
Can you tell I like Cardassians?
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William Picard
Lt. Commander
Let's make sure that history never forgets the name... Enterprise[ss:Solar Flare]
Posts: 525
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Post by William Picard on Aug 27, 2006 9:27:39 GMT -6
let's see........he was in command of bajor during the occupation,he tried tp kill his own daughter,he led the cardassians in the dominion war,he released the pah-wraiths,he killed jadzia,he seduced kai winn, there's alot he was responsible for Aw, come on, Will. He was just "misunderstood."
I liked Dukat... but I preferred Garak. Hated Dumar.
Can you tell I like Cardassians?
i despise all and any cardies, the were all evil til the final episode of DS9
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Post by ziaratiigan on Aug 28, 2006 9:34:53 GMT -6
Starbase 911, Deep Space 9
All though I agree with the Cardiassian stuff, I think Winn was evil from the first time she appeared, and you can only get eviler from there. She was a power-hungry b!+ch. She tried to kill Bariel, blew up a school, tried for a political coup, sent the militia against a bunch of farmers, made a pact with the Dominion, and it only got worse from there. She willingly became a follower of the Pah-wraiths just for revenge against the Prophets for not recognizing her power.
I kinda liked Damar though. He knew what was right most of the time. Garak is incomparable.
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Post by jopierce on Aug 28, 2006 11:13:07 GMT -6
It's all a matter of perspective, no? Some might say that the Federation was the worst of them all...
From "For the Cause," DS9
Eddington: I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed about the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators so that one day they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious... you assimilate people and they don't even know it.[/b]
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Aug 28, 2006 12:37:22 GMT -6
well every society had their own rules and regulations and polices to follow. the maquis were mostly composed of starfleet officers who went AWOL. Sure they never really harmed anyone, but their policies were clear that you dont just run away without probably cause. its like a contract basically. you cant break a contract without consequences. now i agree that the federations 'Prime Directive' is harsh, but it keeps them together. Now cardassians, the occupation was a horrible thing for everyone in the quadrant to witness. I mean, 60 years occupied by a race who cared nothing for them, millions of bajoran citizens murdered. that could take a toll on things. Granted the cardassians will show their 'good' side, but they are like many races, power hungry. The Federation does not show that in any way
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Post by jopierce on Aug 28, 2006 14:10:46 GMT -6
i despise all and any cardies, the were all evil til the final episode of DS9 Aw, come on. They are the bad boys you LOVE to HATE! Just kidding... everyone has a right to an opinion.
Actually, I despise the Cardassian Military. Who wouldn't ? And from what I understand, much of the problems in Cardassian society came from Military control.
But that's just too easy an answer. No society is all evil. Certainly not by their own standards... I really like that this group also had some interesting culture, and that there were so many areas of grey. (And I don't just mean skin color!)
Take for example the episode "Duet." That was really very interesting... Morizza impersonating evil incarnate (Gul Darheel) and facing certain death to save his own soul/conscience and be redeemed for the acts of others?
I think there is a real difference between what individuals do and what society does. That's why I liked this group - it was always a shade of grey.
As many have noted, the great thing about DS9 was that the writers played around a lot with those fine lines between good and evil. I thought it made it the best series, by far.
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Post by jopierce on Aug 28, 2006 14:27:27 GMT -6
well every society had their own rules and regulations and polices to follow. the maquis were mostly composed of starfleet officers who went AWOL. Sure they never really harmed anyone, but their policies were clear that you dont just run away without probably cause. its like a contract basically. you cant break a contract without consequences. now i agree that the federations 'Prime Directive' is harsh, but it keeps them together. Now cardassians, the occupation was a horrible thing for everyone in the quadrant to witness. I mean, 60 years occupied by a race who cared nothing for them, millions of bajoran citizens murdered. that could take a toll on things. Granted the cardassians will show their 'good' side, but they are like many races, power hungry. The Federation does not show that in any way Permission to speak freely, Admiral!
Well, I can see where you are coming from here, but remember, not all Maquis were x-federation officers. Some were just settlers and farmers and native americans (!!) who were being displaced in border disputes. At first, many were just average folks, but then they were pushed to their limits, and pushed to fighting back. Many were just fighting for their land and their rights. I think that many of us can understand that need. (Hey, Happy 4th of July!! oh, wait... that's not for another 11 months...)
I agree, Empires are not nice. Some are brutal, or their policies can be brutal for at least some people. Empires usually only benefit some people. In Trekdom, Cardassian, Romulan, even Klingon Empires were for the benefit of their own people, maybe only some groups/houses/families. Lots of people suffered...
I think the point of Eddington's speech was that he compared the Federation to an Empire (even if it didn't call itself one), and said "Look, we are not benefiting from your policies and treaties. Look, your policy is not nice, to us. Look, your treaties are hurting us..."
Again, look at "Duet." Morizza recognized the violence of the system. It was probably very hard to transcend what by his society's standards was normal, but when he saw it, it hit him hard. Eddington, when he realized that the Maquis were being hurt, and he believed his Federation was to blame, he had to deal with it too. In his eyes, the Federation was instituting a Pax Federationica, and a peace at any cost, which is the privelege of Empires, and which in his mind hurt some of its members. That's why they left the federation.
This is why DS9 is so great....!!! Years after it's over, we can still debate it!!![/size]
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Aug 28, 2006 15:03:43 GMT -6
you make some pretty good arguments there and its hard to dispute over that.
now i know that all the maquis werent composed of x-federation officers, but the maquis were composed of people who didnt like the federation lifestyle or so say.
Also, i dont believe that cardassians are all "evil" or "bad at heart" but with their history to being the only evidence we can look upon, it gives them a bad reputaion and thats why me personally I don't like them. Sure in the end of DS9 they saved cardassia from Dominion control, but it was a costly victory. In the beginning, they sold their people to the Dominion to save them but in the end it almost destroyed them. The Federation is all about peace and willingness to get along with all races. Now i'm not saying that the Federation is perfect, no society is, but it shows that any race can evolve to a state where they dont have to rely on voilence and murder to solve their problems. Everyone thought that Cardassians were evolved, but like many other races (Klingon, Romulan, Breen) they have to use violence and murder to get what they want, and thats not a society someone like myself wants to live in.
Now dealing with the maquis, I wouldn't want to join them and i don't agree with what they do. They raid outposts just to satisfy their needs. If many of them werent x-federation officers im sure that Starfleet wouldn't bother them at all. But going AWOL is a serious offence in the federation and shouln't be brushed off.
So thats my speech ;D
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William Picard
Lt. Commander
Let's make sure that history never forgets the name... Enterprise[ss:Solar Flare]
Posts: 525
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Post by William Picard on Aug 30, 2006 21:37:59 GMT -6
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Spock
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Post by Spock on Sept 4, 2006 17:26:21 GMT -6
everyone has their own opinion, and i enjoy 'debating'. It helps us improve ourselves as Star Trek fans improving our knowledge
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